What might Mr. Miyagi, Dr. Duke, and options have in common? You can find out by listening to our latest episode! We’ve taken our show on the road and are proud to feature some of the engaging and insightful conversations we had with a few of the industry’s most recognized names. In this episode, Lule Demmissie, CEO of eToro, talks about emerging technology and fairness in the markets while Kerry Given aka ‘Dr. Duke’ of Parkwood Capital discusses the importance of education and lessons learned over a career spanning more than 20 years. Tune in today!
TRANSCRIPT
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This is the Options Industry Council’s Wide World of Options.
Before we start today’s show, listeners should know that options involve risk and are not suitable for all investors.
Individuals should not enter into an options transaction until they have read and understood the disclosure document, characteristics, and risks of standardized options, available by visiting theocc.com or by contacting your broker, any exchange on which options are traded, or the Options Clearing Corporation at 125 South Franklin Street, No.
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These costs impact the outcome of all stock and options transactions.
Consult your tax advisor about any potential consequences.
OIC was created in 1992 to educate investors and their financial advisors about the benefits and risks of exchange traded equity options, and the Wide World of Options radio show is one of several resources investors can utilize to learn more about options.
Other resources OIC offers include webinars, articles, and self-guided options related coursework.
For more information, check out www.optionseducation.org.
Now, here’s your host, Mark Benzoquine.
Hello everyone and welcome to OIC’s Wide World of Options.
I’m your host, Mark Benzoquine, and I’m excited to share some news about programming changes that we have in store for you this summer.
Since we began taking the Wide World of Options show on the road earlier this year, we’ve been fortunate enough to sit down with some of the industry’s biggest names for conversations and content that we feel not only provides unique and compelling insight into the options industry, but also quite frankly is incredibly interesting and entertaining as well.
With that in mind, we’ll be temporarily moving away from our traditional format of previewing upcoming OIC webinar events and featuring these conversations in which we discuss the state of the industry, the role of emerging technology such as AI, common investing mistakes, opinions on whether the market is a level playing field, and a whole lot more.
For those interested in our webinar program and what OIC has in store this summer, please visit our optionseducation.org website as we’ve got a whole docket this summer dedicated to harvesting premium income.
Just click on the events tab to see what new and exciting sessions we have lined up.
For our Wide World of Options podcast, however, we’re excited to bring you more of our tales from the road as we’ve been traveling, meeting new friends, and having great conversations about options.
We should note that as our guests are not directly affiliated with OIC or OCC, the opinions expressed are their own and not necessarily those of OCC, nor do we endorse, warrant, or guarantee the products, services, or information discussed by our guests.
And with that out of the way, let’s listen into a conversation that we recently had with Lule Demisse, CEO of eToro.
I had the good fortune of meeting Lule and sitting down with her when we caught up with her at the OIC Options Industry Conference in Asheville, North Carolina, where we discussed a variety of topics including market accessibility, emerging AI, and oddly enough, the Karate Kid.
Let’s listen in now.
Welcome everybody.
I am extremely fortunate to have the opportunity to sit down with the CEO of eToro US, Lule Demisse.
Lule, you were just on a wonderful panel, moderating the panel, I should say.
But before we get into that, I want to give a little background.
You started as an analyst at JP Morgan in 1996, worked your way up through Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, and a long career at TD Ameritrade as a managing director.
From there, you went to be president of LA Investing before joining eToro US as their CEO in 2021.
So before we get to the questions, I want to thank you.
Welcome.
Thank you for having me.
It’s a pleasure to be here with you.
Well, wonderful.
Thank you, Lule.
So speaking of the panel that you had just moderated.
It was on options trailblazers and innovation in the markets.
You had made a comment that kind of struck me as, well, I’m not really sure what she means by that.
So let me ask you if you don’t mind.
The comment you made was that the options trader is incrementalist by nature.
What did you mean by that?
Yeah, so I think that the beauty of options is that it allows you to be as precise as possible about your probabilistic thinking around a strategy.
And what I have found, at least myself, personally as an options trader, because I’ve considered myself an active trader and investor as well, is that I take risks in bite sizes.
I take them frequently, and I take them in bite sizes.
And I think that that sort of dimensionalization of risk in that way incrementally makes you a more lasting options trader.
You don’t lose your shirt all the time, but you also start, it’s like that Mr.
Miyagi thing who whacks on and whacks off all the time when you’re incrementalist.
I love that.
So that’s what I meant by it.
You really just threw out a karate kick for me.
I did, did I?
And I dated myself really bad.
Well, then I’m dating myself because I knew exactly what you’re talking about.
And I could picture the scene in the movie when he’s doing just that.
Yeah, that’s funny.
So speaking of these options traders, obviously you’re very aware of the explosive volume that we’ve had over the last several years.
More people are choosing to park their investing dollars in the options ecosystem.
Why do you think that is?
Why are people turning to it lately over the last, say, five years?
Why that explosion in volume?
I think the makings of it started well before that.
So obviously everybody knows COVID is when we went, what I call anywhere between 10 to 15 years of growth, we pulled it forward into two years basically in the retail investing space.
But the makings of it were there.
So when you think about the innovations of fractionals and the UI, the user experience sort of making things simpler the way Robinhood and eToro have done, the education, the availability of information, shows like yours, like information being accessible and not just in some sort of code linguistic way.
That was, I think, the bedrock that was happening.
And then when technology, when I think when COVID happened, all this amazing technology was available to be unleashed and accessed so easily.
And so I think that really sort of the catalyst was there.
The mystery, I think, and the thing that’s been a delight for me, because I held my breath for a second when COVID ended.
I was like, okay, maybe the retail shop is going to go boom.
>> Yeah, now let’s see what happens.
>> And what’s been real delight, because I am a very passionate active trader.
I don’t apologize for it.
I think there’s nothing wrong with having long-term investments as you should or any other things, but active investing is a very important part of, and I think should be part of people’s lives.
Because what it does is it makes you an owner, and it makes you participate in the concept of ownership.
And I think that the concept of ownership is a really important one for empowering people.
And so I think what’s happened is that they caught the bug.
They caught the bug, and then all this technology made it easier for them to stay bitten.
>> I like that.
>> And I think you see that across different things, not just options, right?
The adoptions of crypto, the adoptions of other types of speculative things people are doing in their lives.
They’ve all caught this bug of, I can do this too.
>> Well, and it’s also in the markets, you’re so much more accessible now.
>> Very much more accessible.
And I mean, think about what options have done.
The secret, I think, of the option space is that it kept on innovating post-COVID, right?
So when you think of the zero days and all these other things it’s doing, improving transparency on data, and all this stuff that makes it so that they can build off that growth, I think has helped.
>> Yeah, interesting.
And I completely agree with you.
Things are certainly more accessible.
Today’s investor is becoming more of an active participant.
They’re becoming more and better educated, so they hopefully know what it is that they’re getting themselves into.
So they have a successful experience trading options.
And then we’ve got all of these new exchanges.
When I started in the business, there were four.
Now there’s 17 with 18 coming online.
So people have more places to park their dollars than they did in the past.
>> Yeah, and that competition is good for the end user, right?
>> Yeah, agreed, agreed.
Let me ask you this.
Like you, or like myself, I should say you’ve been in the business for a very long time.
You’ve learned a lot of lessons, made a lot of mistakes, had a lot of winners, had a lot of losers.
Is there something that you can point to that you know now that you’re thinking, boy, if I knew this when I was getting started in the business, my trajectory would have been different, or maybe things would have been so much easier.
Anything come to mind?
>> I think that I did not appreciate the value of being a risk taker earlier in life.
Not that I wasn’t personally a risk taker.
I was always open to risk taking.
But my background is that I’m an immigrant.
And so like many immigrants, as you might know, we’re not only succeeding for ourselves, we’re also succeeding for the people we’re supporting back at home, and the extended families we may support.
And so I had to be a grownup and get a job on Wall Street, right?
And I loved it.
>> Wait a minute.
Since when has getting a job on Wall Street had anything to do with being a grownup?
>> Well, that’s true.
Which has actually suited me just fine because I’m not a grownup.
>> Same, 100%.
And so ultimately, I think if the one thing I’d say is I became, you know how people say you get older and you get more mature?
I reversed course on that.
I became a much more avid risk taker.
Not stupid risk, but a risk taker as I got older.
And I would love to have started that earlier.
So whether starting companies, whatever people want to do, take a year off from college for a little bit to expand their minds.
Don’t be scared.
>> Okay.
>> And I think that fear is, especially in the world we’re facing right now, where frankly, you and I and nobody knows in five to 10 years what it’s going to look like.
And the last thing we need is fear in our hearts.
So that’s what I would recommend to people is take as much as you can out of life with experience and doing, and don’t be scared, and don’t be caught up on titles and anything like that.
Just look for the experience.
>> I like that.
Okay, excellent.
And it’s okay to make mistakes.
In fact, it is — if you’re not making mistakes, you’re not doing it right.
>> Or you’re not doing it hard enough.
You’re not putting enough effort.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah.
It was funny.
I don’t know if you caught the keynote speech the other day.
The Navy SEAL, Rourke Denver, I believe it was his name.
And when he made the comment, when he had all of us raise our hands up and then said, okay, give me another inch.
And I thought it was kind of interesting that by nature, maybe we don’t put forth our max amount of effort initially.
So yeah, maybe getting started in the business, you know, take those risks.
>> It’s in our DNA.
I mean, think about it as survival tactics when we were in the jungle, right?
You got to hoard a little to be able to — >> Right.
That’s a good point.
>> And yeah, we have to fight it.
We have to fight the desire to not take risks.
>> Yeah, interesting.
Well, I appreciate your take on that.
Thank you.
Let’s get your take on this.
Well, you had said that we have no idea what’s going to be happening five years, 10 years down in the future.
But when it comes to market trends, do you see where things might be going five, 10 years down the road?
You know, how do you see the market evolving?
How do you see technology evolving?
And how would that benefit to market growth?
>> So it’s fascinating.
I think that in some ways, the technology is going to make what exists already exponentially more powerful.
When you think about a trader and some of the visualizations that they could be powered with with AI and supercomputing, right?
One of the elements that is so exciting is the ability to visualize and be able to do things and compute at a faster rate than we do now, right?
So that makes what we have already better for the end user and end consumer.
On the other hand, it could also just disrupt and blow up everything, right?
When you think about what the power of supercomputing and AI could do, it could just change normal completely and we at the foundational and sort of anatomical level will have to reinvent finance if you will because of how it changes it.
So in some ways I feel like in the interim, I see a powering of that innovation.
In the end state, it could very well be that it’s a transformation.
But I think whichever way I look at it, it is an exciting time to be alive.
>> Certainly, right.
>> Whether it’s as an investor or as a creator, I think it’s a really exciting time to be alive and it is definitely not a time to recoil and think, “Oh no, everything we’ve got is going to go away.”
I think that it’s a really exciting time for that.
>> Yeah, so don’t bury your head in the sand and be open to new opportunities.
>> Absolutely.
It’s the spice of life.
And you know, it’s interesting because I just told you we did a survey on, we do periodic surveys of our consumers.
Our consumers are just to back up a little, mostly millennial or younger.
And so our investors come to our platform either to do social investing where they are in part of an ecosystem of people sharing ideas.
We have stocks, we have options, we have crypto, and we’ll have more in the future.
And so we do surveys of our customers.
So we get to learn what the retail investor’s thinking on a regular basis, both in terms of what they do with their trading, but also what they say.
And as you know, that’s not always the same thing.
>> Good, that’s for sure.
So what we found is that, for instance, when we survey people about what is the most familiar instrument to you and what’s the one you use the most, for sure stocks is number one.
It’s about 64% in this last survey we did, 65%.
But then of course it’s crypto assets, 41% said that.
And so I think one of the things that is, for me, exciting to understand is how the world has gone upside down in the sense that when crypto came about and when FinTech became more active trader for retail, suddenly the old model of institutions come up with products, then they make money off of them for a generation or two.
Then they figure out how to create a derivative of them so they can mass market them.
Then they mass market them to the rich people first.
Then the poor people get the chewed up version of it.
>> And this is almost like reverse engineering.
>> It’s the exact opposite now.
And so in some ways it’s really fascinating to see individuals being at the top of the food chain of innovation.
>> Yeah.
Now do you think that the fact that it’s in reverse, do you think that might be leading to the fact that the marketplace and specifically regulators are not as on board with crypto as that they might be otherwise because things are coming from the bottom up versus the top down?
>> It’s certainly scarier, right?
You don’t control it in the small rooms where the deals are done, right?
Yes, I think there are many other reasons.
There’s geopolitical power reasons and so many other reasons why.
But I think ultimately it’s the best results that could happen if we indeed are earnest in our pursuit for a more open and equal world.
I love the way people used to say in the old days people knew what they were doing in trading.
Well, that’s because they bartered in information that nobody had.
Let’s get real.
>> Well, and I’m glad that you said that because it brings up a question that I’ve been asking with some others.
Is it a level playing field?
I frequent some of the online forums just to get a pulse of the investor and the overwhelming attitude or opinion is that it’s like a David versus Goliath mentality in the market.
There’s the individual investor versus Wall Street.
Certainly Wall Street has the upper hand in some aspects technology, but is it rigged against the individual investor, do you think?
>> Who won between David and Goliath?
>> Yeah.
>> I’m just saying.
>> Excellent point.
>> But I would say that there’s sort of the edge and the chip on the shoulder that the retail investor has is a healthy one.
Whether it’s real or not, it’s a healthy one.
I think it keeps the system and the ecosystem in balance.
I think that it is much more level than it ever was.
And it would be disingenuous to say it’s not.
I mean, when I started out to even just buy a mutual fund, you needed $20,000.
Right?
And that was just like a minute ago.
I’m not that old.
Right?
And you had to have a financial advisor to be able to access things.
Now there’s fractional shares.
I don’t have to be a millionaire to buy Berkshire Hathaway stock now.
No shares was made possible.
I can open an account for $10.
Right?
I can.
So it would be disingenuous not to say that it has become more so.
And as the options industry keeps on making information more perfect, right?
As it trans– with all of these exchanges that push transparency, right?
I think that makes it more level playing field.
But I think we never should lose the feeling that we need to keep making it more.
>> Need to keep doing better.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Excellent.
You know, I really, really appreciate that insight.
Really appreciate you taking the time to sit with us.
But I don’t want to let you go.
>> Yes, of course.
>> Let’s get away from options.
>> This is so much fun.
>> Well, good.
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
I love doing this.
I love talking options with people.
So I certainly thank you for your time.
If you weren’t in options, do you envision a life?
Let’s say, you know, years ago you made the choice to get into the markets.
Was there maybe a different avenue that you could have taken?
Or in an ideal world, where do you think you might be without finance, without this industry?
What might you be doing?
>> Yeah.
I mean, it’s interesting because I feel like so much of our– the reason why we excel is actually the things that we don’t have any choice around.
So I’m so blessed that I didn’t have choices in some ways.
>> Yeah, we’re very lucky, certainly.
>> Yeah.
So I think that, you know, I love finance intellectually as a work.
Like I– you know, when I’m family gatherings, people are constantly asking me about what they invest in, what they invest in now more than ever.
So I love finance culturally.
I think it explains a lot in our society, and I wish more people would understand it more.
And so even if I were doing the other thing that I thought I would do– >> Okay, which is?
>> I thought I was going to be Terry Gross.
>> Really?
>> NPR.
I love hearing people’s stories, asking them their stories, telling stories.
But I will tell you this.
No matter what I would have done, and I love being in finance, I would have always wanted to be an investor.
I think that that’s one thing I want to evangelize everybody on is like it is really important to be an investor.
You look at any stats, like just a simple one, for example, if you look at the wealth gap that happens in America, right?
We know that there’s a gigantic wealth gap between different classes, economic classes, different races.
The root cause is always the ownership of assets.
The root cause is– it’s not that I’m not saying that income does not matter, but income cannot outrun the growth of what happens in ownership of stocks and all sorts of instruments like that.
And so I think whatever we do, whether we’re a butcher baker or a candlestick maker, we should all be investors to augment the wealth that we could have in our lifetimes or in our future lifetimes.
And whenever people tell me, well, I have debt, I have this.
I came to this country with no money, and all of my education was done either on debt or in grants that I got or scholarships.
And as I graduated with debt, I was still investing.
Yeah, and the sooner you’re reaching out to the retail investor, you had said that the demographic of your clientele skews younger.
The sooner you get started, the better.
It was Warren Buffett that said, right, the compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world.
Time.
Time is a wonderful– it’s forgiving of all your mistakes, and it also compounds.
Yeah, that’s excellent.
I like that.
Before I let you go, last question.
What do you do for fun?
What do you like doing at a weekend?
Or are you a reader?
Are you a cook?
Are you a singer, dancer?
Yes, I’m a reader, mostly through audiobooks now, though.
But I love reading.
I have two little ones, so that takes up a lot of the time, as you know.
But I love travel.
I love cooking.
And I used to dabble in singing and salsa dancing, so I’m going back into that now that it’s a little older.
Really?
Fun.
Yeah, I mean, it’s a full life.
Excellent.
And that’s the best way that it should be.
Indeed it is.
Yeah, terrific.
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
I really, really appreciate your time.
And I love meeting you.
Thank you.
You’re a fantastic woman.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
And we’re back.
Isn’t she great?
If you had Mr.
Miyagi, David and Goliath, an NPR on your options bingo card, congratulations.
You’re a winner.
But seriously, I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed my chat with Lulei.
And look forward to many more conversations with this remarkable woman down the road.
Now we’re going to shift gears and listen in on a conversation that we recently had in Las Vegas with Kerry Given of Parkwood Capital, who’s more affectionately known as Dr.
Duke.
Dr.
Duke has been involved in the options space for more than 20 years, is an acclaimed author, educator, options mentor, among other roles.
And as it turns out, a pretty interesting individual as well.
Let’s go ahead and listen in now.
Hello, everyone.
We’re coming at you from the Expo floor Las Vegas Money Show, Traders Expo event.
Very, very fortunate to have Kerry Given with us of Parkwood Capital.
Dr.
Duke, as your name, as you’re known as.
Kerry, thank you for joining us.
Really appreciate this.
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Let’s start out with the obvious.
Dr.
Duke, where does that come from?
What’s the story with that?
Duke is a family nickname from way back.
I happen to be born the same day as Prince Charles, now King Charles.
And dad thought that was cool, and so he called me Duke.
And I stuck.
And always in my corporate life, I was always Kerry, but family and friends are going to be just Duke.
Interesting.
Okay.
So speaking of corporate life, like us, you’re an educator, extensive experience in options, 30 plus years, I believe.
When it comes to educating investors, do you find that there are common issues they run into, common problems, mistakes they might make?
What do you think about that?
Typically, when somebody approaches me for private coaching, I’ll have a phone conversation.
And more often than I would like, I will find that they have what I would call unrealistic expectations.
They’re trying to solve their retirement problem in one year or something like that.
And I usually just politely say, “Well, I don’t think I’m going to be able to help you, and you wouldn’t be happy, because I just feel like I probably would be giving them something either isn’t going to solve their problem.
And I might even, if I were candid, say that I don’t think I can solve your problem, or maybe anyone can.”
Right.
Well, there’s a difference between trading and investing.
Yeah.
And very often, these people don’t have the time for the investment.
Correct, right.
And sometimes they’ve read things, or I mean, you’ve probably seen things at some of these shows that aren’t terribly realistic.
Realistic?
Yeah.
That’s funny.
We both use the same word.
Yeah, because I sometimes shudder a little bit at people who are going to shell out a thousand bucks for whatever it is.
And I’m thinking, “Well, I don’t know about that, especially if you can’t afford that.”
Right.
So that’s my biggest worry, I guess.
Yeah, and I did, like you, certainly met a number of investors here at the event, just as we do every year.
And one of the things that we talk about, or that I try to talk about, is the difference between trading and investing.
Trading, you get up to the plate and you want to hit a home run, grand slam every single time, and more often than you’re going to strike out.
Investing, it doesn’t matter if you get hit by a pitch.
If you get, you know, as long as you get on base, that’s the idea, right?
Get those small returns coming and build as we go along.
So yeah, excellent.
Unrealistic expectations.
I like that.
A common thing, so thank you for that.
All right, Kerry, so let’s get back to the educating.
Both you and I are educators.
I’ve been educating only for about eight years or so since I came to OIC.
You obviously have a much more extensive track record.
What is it that you find so fulfilling, so satisfying about educating and bring options education to the masses?
I’ve always enjoyed teaching.
I earned my PhD in chemistry and I was intending to be a professor.
And I guess got distracted.
I ended up in an industry research lab instead.
But part of that is because I already had a family at that point and we were poverty-stricken for too long.
Anyway, I’ve always enjoyed teaching and that’s what I originally was starting to do with the PhD.
But since I retired and started Parkwood Capital, I found the coaching of individuals so that they could manage their own finances, in effect, to be very fulfilling because an awful lot of people just are totally lost and don’t have even first thing, first little knowledge about how to manage their own finances.
Right, yeah, certainly.
Now, what I found is that when I do a typical coaching course, it’s more of an options A to Z, I guess you’d say.
About half of those clients end up saying, “Well, I’m glad that I went through this because now I’m going to have more intelligent conversations with my financial advisor.”
But I’ve also learned that I don’t really want to do this and that’s valuable.
And that’s fine, right.
And that’s what we, something that I’ve been telling people that come by our booth all the time is, “Oh, I see.
What we want to do is give you the knowledge for you to make the determination as to whether or not options are right for you.”
And if they’re not, so be it.
But at least you’re making that decision from a position of education as opposed to one that I just don’t understand them so I’m going to stay away from.
And the other thing I try and do is I try to make sure that I’ve learned in the course of the coaching that I’ve learned enough about that person to point out things that fit them.
Oh, I like that, y’all.
Because most of my clients are pretty conservative and so we do a lot of just cover calls, selling puts, that kind of thing.
And when they want to do something like I just finished talking about zero DTE SPX options and I emphasize when anybody comes to me about that, I emphasize, “Well, you’re going to have to be able to afford the losses before you learn how to do this and make sure that they really have any business doing this.”
Gotcha.
Because it’s a dangerous trade.
Right.
Yeah.
Zero DTE has always existed.
It only has come into the zeitgeist, if you will, simply because somebody decided, “Let’s make this a thing.”
But they’ve always been around since options have been around.
Jim Bittman once told me when weeklies were becoming all over here, he said, “We’ve always had those.
Just have them once a month.”
I like that.
So, you know, you brought up a point that I want to circle back on.
So a PhD in chemistry.
My daughter’s a chemistry major, University of Illinois, so very proud of that.
How do you go from chemistry to options?
What transpired there?
How’d you make that change?
Most of my career is with Amoco and also GE Plastics.
All during that, I was always saving the maximum with the company of Match and so forth.
And then I had some money left over that I started investing myself.
So I was teaching myself how to, mostly just stock options, like IBD.
I got into IBD primarily for the educational tour offering.
And so I was always doing that.
And then when I left Amoco, like anybody who leaves a big company like that, I had an awful lot of Amoco stock, much more than I should have for a balanced portfolio.
And I discovered, well, I could sell calls and trim this down slowly over time and bring in cash at the same time.
And so that was my introduction to options.
And now is my entire career.
I’ve been used to buying books and finding out about new subjects and learning, teaching myself.
And so I started down as options churn.
My first book that I wrote was titled No Hype Options Trading.
And the reason for that title was I spent a lot of years there going down blind alleys and finding out people were crooks and so forth.
Crazy, right?
Yeah.
So anyway, I’ve enjoyed doing it and it started, my business actually started by accident.
I was on a chat room and a guy posted a comment and said, “I just took this two-day course in options and I don’t have a clue what I’m doing.
Would anybody want to tutor me?”
I thought, well, maybe.
And we changed a couple emails and he was my first client.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Well, I like that.
A wonderful way to transition from what you know professionally and with the hobby that you have and then making that hobby into a livelihood.
So excellent.
Great information.
Kerry, really appreciate you taking the time to stop by.
I did catch some of your presentation earlier.
Terrific crowd, terrific engagement, terrific information.
So really appreciate you stopping by and sitting down to talk with us.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It’s my pleasure.
All right.
Thank you so much.
That’s going to do it for today’s episode of Wide World of Options.
So thanks to both Lule Domisse of Etoro and Dr.
Duke of Parkwood Capital for sitting down with us on the road.
And be sure to visit the events section of our optionseducation.org website to register for our summer of selling webinars where we’ll be dissecting premium strategies like covered calls, cash-secured puts, credit spreads, and more.
And thanks again to all of our listeners and supporters out there.
As always, please feel free to send us your questions via email at options@theocc.com or live chat with us on our website as we love hearing from our listeners.
Take care, everyone, and we’ll be talking with you again very soon.
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